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The exodus of friends continues . . . - Persephone Yavanna the Entwife

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October 19th, 2005


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12:05 am - The exodus of friends continues . . .


diavola restroom


One of the side effects of being Evil Incarnate . . .

~~ sighs ~~

~~ twirls her pointy tail ~~

~~ sings Voltaire's "When You're Evil" to cheer herself up ~~

~~ twirls her pointy tail some more ~~

~~ starts to read "Pariah-hood for Dummies" ~~
Current Mood: sadresigned
Current Music: "When You're Evil" by Voltaire

(35 seeds eaten | Eat a pomegranate)

Comments:


[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 01:39 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
You are hearing things that aren't being said.

I'm sorry that you are not able to see what I see there -- it's there, even if you are not able to perceive it yourself.

By focusing on the one sentence you search to find fault in, you ignore all the sentences before it including the apology, the concern for your welfare, and you CHOOSE to believe that they are not sincere. You make this choice by ignoring other positive statements, and choosing to focus on the negative ones.

They were not ignored. I do believe that the positive statements were said in order to be polite -- a type of "windowdressing" as it were. When people have a disagreement after a gift having been given, it is polite to offer to return the gift.

The gift was given sincerely on my part and I do not wish it returned. It was a genuine gift.

To me, politeness and sincerity are two different things.

You have participated in this on so many levels that being a victim has become a choice.

That I believe to be a matter of opinion -- and one we might need to agree to disagree on. I will agree that I did participate in this though. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

It's your choice to make...but I don't know why on earth you would choose those things unless you know no other way to choose. There is a better way.

Yes -- out.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:blaisepascal
Date:October 20th, 2005 02:57 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
You have participated in this on so many levels that being a victim has become a choice.

That I believe to be a matter of opinion -- and one we might need to agree to disagree on. I will agree that I did participate in this though. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.


I can give one clear example of a participation on your part that helped fuel the fire -- a participation that began even before all this go to LJ.

In your comments on LJ, you make it very clear that you feel that you were being deliberately attacked -- laughed at, I believe you said -- by some of the folks this past weekend, and had the situation intentionally rubbed in your face. Specifically, you cited sheherazahde as one of the people making jokes about it at your expense.

I saw the situation differently. Granted, as the partner of skitten, you might choose to discount my viewpoint as biased, but I'll still present them. I saw Zahde teasing, but I didn't see it as teasing aimed at you. Rather, I saw it as teasing aimed at Skitten, based on wink-wink-nudge-nudge the initiate is going to sleep with someone she has been discussing exploring her feelings with for a while. Zahde later acted with genuine confusion when questions about where I was to sleep were raised, because she didn't realize her teasing had a basis in fact. When I clued her in on what was going on, she realized she had gone too far in embarrasing Skitten.

Where's your participation? You assumed that the teasing was malicious and aimed at you. Yes, you were hurt by what was going on, but by assuming (incorrectly) that people were intentionally rubbing it in your face to spite you, you fuelled your own anger and hurt. You failed to apply Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance.

I've discussed this situation with Skitten, and she did not want to rub your face in the situation, but rather felt embarrassed by Zahde's comments both on her account and yours as well. She also felt that no opportunity presented itself to tell Eva to shut up that wouldn't draw more attention to the situation. We brought with us two guests who were NOT privy to the details of our relationships, and whom we didn't want to expose unnecessarily. So for that reason too, Skitten would have preferred if Zahde had stopped teasing.

I would encourage you to rethink all the events that happened with the viewpoint that perhaps malice wasn't involved, and that your feelings weren't intentionally trampled. That perhaps ignorance, differing viewpoints, and poor communication combined to produce an uncomfortable situation.
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 04:19 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
Where's your participation? You assumed that the teasing was malicious and aimed at you. Yes, you were hurt by what was going on, but by assuming (incorrectly) that people were intentionally rubbing it in your face to spite you, you fuelled your own anger and hurt. You failed to apply Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance.

In the case of E, I can believe that she was oblivious to the hurt she was causing. In fact, earlier that evening she and I had a discussion on that same topic. I did believe, however, that she knew what the true situation was, from what she said. Even if she did not though, it still was not a nice thing to do. It was not considerate of the feelings of others.

This does not excuse things that your partner said, however. And she has not the excuse that E does, of being ignorant of the situation. She knew. And knew also how I felt. Some of the things she said made me feel so upset it was all I could do not to burst into tears. I tried very hard not to let others present see the effect her words were having on me, since I didn't want to cause a fuss or a scene.

This is also not the first time things like this have come up with her. A few months ago in an IM session with me she said some things I found very hurtful -- to the point where I fled and ended up crying my eyes out at what she had said.

It is possible that she is unconscious of the effects of her words. I find it difficult to believe that, but I can accept that as a possibility.

I would encourage you to rethink all the events that happened with the viewpoint that perhaps malice wasn't involved, and that your feelings weren't intentionally trampled. That perhaps ignorance, differing viewpoints, and poor communication combined to produce an uncomfortable situation.

I will try to do so -- although it will be easier to do that in E's case than in that of your partner. But I will try, even with her, difficult though that will be for me.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:skitten
Date:October 20th, 2005 10:27 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
I have been reading this entry with interest because whether you believe it or not I really do want to make sure you are ok. I'm now attempting one last time to communicate with you, though I'm not sure how helpful it will be because you don't seem to believe anything I say is true. You seem to feel that everything I say is with the intent of harming you.

With regards to the conversation when Eva was teasing I was pretty horrified about how that was going. I could see how much it was hurting your feelings and I was squirming because it was horribly embarassing at both levels that Buddha brought up.

I'm not sure what words you feel I used in person that were intentionally harmful. I didn't even direct any words towards you during that exchange. If I could have I would have left the room but it didn't seem appropriate. I also actively avoided going into the blue room by packing things and cleaning up because I was very uncomfortable with how things were going on many levels...

With regards to the conversation IM... I believe the point I made was that you had backed yourself into a corner by staying in a relationship that was making you miserable and I asked you why. Then, instead of thinking about that you reverted to tears and anger.

I recognize that the parameters of your relationship with Craig changed dramatically when he moved in with Tracy. That was none of my doing but I can understand how that would feel like things were conspiring against you. Perhaps at that point Craig could have explained where he felt you stand or you could have asked for a specific definition of what your level of relationship is. I don't know, maybe that *did* happen, but there was obviously a difference of opinion or a lack of clarity. Either way it did make this situation even worse and that I wish hadn't happened.

Despite it all I want you to be healthy and happy. So I wish you well!
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 08:16 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
I have been reading this entry with interest because whether you believe it or not I really do want to make sure you are ok.

Duly noted -- and I accept that you want to make sure I'm OK.

I'm now attempting one last time to communicate with you, though I'm not sure how helpful it will be because you don't seem to believe anything I say is true. You seem to feel that everything I say is with the intent of harming you.

In deference to your partner and what he wrote above, I will accept that you didn't mean to be as hurtful as you were. It likely has to do with your style of communicating -- the messages other receive from you may not be what you intended to send.

I'm not sure what words you feel I used in person that were intentionally harmful. I didn't even direct any words towards you during that exchange.

There were exchanges other than that one with you. Ones where you rather forcefully rubbed my nose in the situation. Don't ask me for the exact words now -- I could have told you in detail on Sunday, but I can't now -- I only remember the impact they had on me -- and how much they hurt.

With regards to the conversation IM... I believe the point I made was that you had backed yourself into a corner by staying in a relationship that was making you miserable and I asked you why. Then, instead of thinking about that you reverted to tears and anger.

I told you I didn't want to discuss the situation repeatedly, yet you kept on bringing it up again and again and again -- hammering me with it over and over and over. Poking at a sore spot and rubbing my nose in it -- again. And again. And again. Until I fled in tears because I couldn't take it anymore.

Despite it all I want you to be healthy and happy. So I wish you well!

Duly noted and accepted.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 10:03 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
That perhaps ignorance, differing viewpoints, and poor communication combined to produce an uncomfortable situation.

The information contained in this post and the sites it links to might prove useful for some . . .


Persephone

[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 22nd, 2005 02:47 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
In case you haven't read this post from the polyamory LJ community, I think you should.

For the record, I consider myself a follower of the "inclusion" model.

I don't think others in this drama were though.


Persephone

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