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October 19th, 2005


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12:05 am - The exodus of friends continues . . .


diavola restroom


One of the side effects of being Evil Incarnate . . .

~~ sighs ~~

~~ twirls her pointy tail ~~

~~ sings Voltaire's "When You're Evil" to cheer herself up ~~

~~ twirls her pointy tail some more ~~

~~ starts to read "Pariah-hood for Dummies" ~~
Current Mood: sadresigned
Current Music: "When You're Evil" by Voltaire

(34 seeds eaten | Eat a pomegranate)

Comments:


[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 19th, 2005 10:56 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
Continuation of the above comment:


"And that has occurred repeatedly in this situation to me -- my point of view is dismissed without a second thought."

I've been reading the posts back and forth, and I do not see this being done to you.


This statement leads me to the conclusion that we are not perceiving the same things. Therefore, I think it necessary to give specific examples, with the messages I am receiving from them. Please forgive me if the tone comes across as possibly being condescending -- it is honestly not meant to be so -- I am simply making an attempt to provide clarity to this murky situation.

In this comment, I am referred to as someone who prefers to "play the victim" -- I found this term to be dismissive, as though I were playing some kind of mind game. I am not. I feel that I have a legitimate grievance that is not being heard. Using the term "play the victim" makes me receive the message that the person making that comment considers that my grievance is not valid and that what I say will be ignored.

In this comment, "I hope you can gain some perspective on it eventually..." causes me to receive another dismissive message. I am receiving the message that the writer thinks that my viewpoint needs to be altered -- that it is not in accord with reality. Again, invalidation of my viewpoint -- dismissal out of hand.

I as well as others were also able to see that I was being baited by this same writer. (I know you did not -- that is why I am pointing this out here.) I did not take kindly to that, particularly when the entry in her journal belied her seemingly-kind comment -- there was a discord there that I pointed out, point by point. I admit to being both bitter and sarcastic at times there, but I felt that I was being provoked and needed to reply to her comment to point out the inconsistencies of her statements. The dissonance between what she said in one place versus what she said in another really grated on my nerves, especially when she was being dismissive of my point of view.

I think you're just really really angry.

No -- I'm hurt. Very, very, VERY hurt. I admit to flashes of anger in this post and its comments and in this comment -- shown mostly with sarcasm -- but my main emotion is hurt -- deep gut-wrenching pain. (You can tell my mood pretty easily usually based on what icon I use for a post or a comment.)

I feel as though the one I love so deeply has abandoned me in favor of someone else -- someone newer and shinier. There no longer is space in his life for me -- I have been replaced. When there is time for someone else, but not for me, the message I receive from that is that I am no longer wanted or cared for, that I am no longer important to him. And that message hurts me very much and very deeply.

I want nothing more than to have him take me into his lap and kiss me and cuddle me and be truly loved and wanted by him.

But I can't have that. It was hard enough for me to be second-best always -- now I'm third-best, if I'm even as high as that. I feel as though I'm just a name on a list -- and my name isn't even near the top. Not anymore.

The pain of that realization was more than I could bear, especially when my nose was repeatedly rubbed in it.


Persephone the Broken-Hearted
[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 19th, 2005 11:35 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
Like you, this will take a couple of posts to reply to:

In this comment, I am referred to as someone who prefers to "play the victim" -- I found this term to be dismissive, as though I were playing some kind of mind game. I am not. I feel that I have a legitimate grievance that is not being heard. Using the term "play the victim" makes me receive the message that the person making that comment considers that my grievance is not valid and that what I say will be ignored.

That response is not to attack you...it is to console her, because she was explaining how she apologized and she was attacked for it. That is a true statement...she apologized, and she was attacked for it. Because of THAT you lose validity...it makes it appear as if there is nothing that will console you, you will not hear other opinions than your own. You become unapproachable by your response, and normal functional healthy people will not hunt down another human being and force healing on them. You choose not to resolve peacefully.

That was your choice. It has consequence.
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 01:15 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
That response is not to attack you...it is to console her, because she was explaining how she apologized and she was attacked for it.

It didn't seem that way to me, but I will admit that it can be interpreted that way as well.

As to the apology mentioned, please see my comment above. What was written to me did not come across as a genuine apology -- merely an expression of regret for the situation. To me, that expression of regret, phrased in the manner it was, was not an apology -- although apparently others saw it as such.

it makes it appear as if there is nothing that will console you, you will not hear other opinions than your own.

Not true. I will hear opinions other than my own -- even if I disagree with them -- but I also want the holders of those other opinions to listen to mine -- with the same degree of respect that they expect me to listen to theirs. When that doesn't occur, I get upset at the lack of reciprocity. They need not agree with me, but I feel that they should listen. To me, that is fair.

You choose not to resolve peacefully.

I'm really not sure that resolution is possible here -- it would be nice if it were! I'm willing -- not sure if others are though . . .


Persephone

[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 19th, 2005 11:40 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
In this comment, "I hope you can gain some perspective on it eventually..." causes me to receive another dismissive message. I am receiving the message that the writer thinks that my viewpoint needs to be altered -- that it is not in accord with reality. Again, invalidation of my viewpoint -- dismissal out of hand.

You are hearing things that aren't being said. Hoping that you gain a perspective means that you gain the ability to see another viewpoint besides your own, not to become a blind robot that automatically agrees with the viewpoint presented.

By focusing on the one sentence you search to find fault in, you ignore all the sentences before it including the apology, the concern for your welfare, and you CHOOSE to believe that they are not sincere. You make this choice by ignoring other positive statements, and choosing to focus on the negative ones.

Does your viewpoint need to be altered? I believe so, yes, but not the way you probably think I mean it. I think your viewpoint of yourself as an innocent bystander needs to be looked at. You have participated in this on so many levels that being a victim has become a choice.

It's your choice to make...but I don't know why on earth you would choose those things unless you know no other way to choose. There is a better way.
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 01:39 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
You are hearing things that aren't being said.

I'm sorry that you are not able to see what I see there -- it's there, even if you are not able to perceive it yourself.

By focusing on the one sentence you search to find fault in, you ignore all the sentences before it including the apology, the concern for your welfare, and you CHOOSE to believe that they are not sincere. You make this choice by ignoring other positive statements, and choosing to focus on the negative ones.

They were not ignored. I do believe that the positive statements were said in order to be polite -- a type of "windowdressing" as it were. When people have a disagreement after a gift having been given, it is polite to offer to return the gift.

The gift was given sincerely on my part and I do not wish it returned. It was a genuine gift.

To me, politeness and sincerity are two different things.

You have participated in this on so many levels that being a victim has become a choice.

That I believe to be a matter of opinion -- and one we might need to agree to disagree on. I will agree that I did participate in this though. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

It's your choice to make...but I don't know why on earth you would choose those things unless you know no other way to choose. There is a better way.

Yes -- out.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:blaisepascal
Date:October 20th, 2005 02:57 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
You have participated in this on so many levels that being a victim has become a choice.

That I believe to be a matter of opinion -- and one we might need to agree to disagree on. I will agree that I did participate in this though. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.


I can give one clear example of a participation on your part that helped fuel the fire -- a participation that began even before all this go to LJ.

In your comments on LJ, you make it very clear that you feel that you were being deliberately attacked -- laughed at, I believe you said -- by some of the folks this past weekend, and had the situation intentionally rubbed in your face. Specifically, you cited sheherazahde as one of the people making jokes about it at your expense.

I saw the situation differently. Granted, as the partner of skitten, you might choose to discount my viewpoint as biased, but I'll still present them. I saw Zahde teasing, but I didn't see it as teasing aimed at you. Rather, I saw it as teasing aimed at Skitten, based on wink-wink-nudge-nudge the initiate is going to sleep with someone she has been discussing exploring her feelings with for a while. Zahde later acted with genuine confusion when questions about where I was to sleep were raised, because she didn't realize her teasing had a basis in fact. When I clued her in on what was going on, she realized she had gone too far in embarrasing Skitten.

Where's your participation? You assumed that the teasing was malicious and aimed at you. Yes, you were hurt by what was going on, but by assuming (incorrectly) that people were intentionally rubbing it in your face to spite you, you fuelled your own anger and hurt. You failed to apply Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance.

I've discussed this situation with Skitten, and she did not want to rub your face in the situation, but rather felt embarrassed by Zahde's comments both on her account and yours as well. She also felt that no opportunity presented itself to tell Eva to shut up that wouldn't draw more attention to the situation. We brought with us two guests who were NOT privy to the details of our relationships, and whom we didn't want to expose unnecessarily. So for that reason too, Skitten would have preferred if Zahde had stopped teasing.

I would encourage you to rethink all the events that happened with the viewpoint that perhaps malice wasn't involved, and that your feelings weren't intentionally trampled. That perhaps ignorance, differing viewpoints, and poor communication combined to produce an uncomfortable situation.
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 04:19 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
Where's your participation? You assumed that the teasing was malicious and aimed at you. Yes, you were hurt by what was going on, but by assuming (incorrectly) that people were intentionally rubbing it in your face to spite you, you fuelled your own anger and hurt. You failed to apply Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance.

In the case of E, I can believe that she was oblivious to the hurt she was causing. In fact, earlier that evening she and I had a discussion on that same topic. I did believe, however, that she knew what the true situation was, from what she said. Even if she did not though, it still was not a nice thing to do. It was not considerate of the feelings of others.

This does not excuse things that your partner said, however. And she has not the excuse that E does, of being ignorant of the situation. She knew. And knew also how I felt. Some of the things she said made me feel so upset it was all I could do not to burst into tears. I tried very hard not to let others present see the effect her words were having on me, since I didn't want to cause a fuss or a scene.

This is also not the first time things like this have come up with her. A few months ago in an IM session with me she said some things I found very hurtful -- to the point where I fled and ended up crying my eyes out at what she had said.

It is possible that she is unconscious of the effects of her words. I find it difficult to believe that, but I can accept that as a possibility.

I would encourage you to rethink all the events that happened with the viewpoint that perhaps malice wasn't involved, and that your feelings weren't intentionally trampled. That perhaps ignorance, differing viewpoints, and poor communication combined to produce an uncomfortable situation.

I will try to do so -- although it will be easier to do that in E's case than in that of your partner. But I will try, even with her, difficult though that will be for me.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 19th, 2005 11:53 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
I as well as others were also able to see that I was being baited by this same writer. (I know you did not -- that is why I am pointing this out here.) I did not take kindly to that, particularly when the entry in her journal belied her seemingly-kind comment -- there was a discord there that I pointed out, point by point. I admit to being both bitter and sarcastic at times there, but I felt that I was being provoked and needed to reply to her comment to point out the inconsistencies of her statements. The dissonance between what she said in one place versus what she said in another really grated on my nerves, especially when she was being dismissive of my point of view.

Interestingly enough, even that person that you say agrees with you says,"Kinda clever to use your LJ to do it, but only in the way that it seems you started it..." Even the person that agrees with you can see the argument that you started it.

As for her inconsistencies in her entry, you yourself have within the past week told me how you made decisions that you knew you should not have made, but you made them because you were so emotionally carried away that you made those decisions anyway, knowing that you shouldn't.

How can you fault someone else for doing the exact same thing?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong (in her case or yours). What I'm saying is, if you're willing to forgive it without a second thought in your own case, you should extend that to other people.

I mean, honestly, she even mentioned in her comment that maybe "we" should have spoken to you, as if it was even her responsibility, which it isn't. The only person with a responsibility to speak to you about it was him, seeing as he was the one in the situation with you (and whether or not he needed to speak to you at all is the root of the problem. That matter wasn't discussed and resolved clearly.) Anger and hurt is flying all over the place at people who don't really deserve it.

And again, it's your right to feel that way...but not looking at these things and not seeing these things is not helping you.

Most of her post had nothing to do with you at all, instead it was about ritual. It occurred to me today what you had said about my adoption ritual...is it possible that this is all pushing an additional button that has to do with family and community?
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 02:08 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
What I'm saying is, if you're willing to forgive it without a second thought in your own case, you should extend that to other people.

Who says I've forgiven myself? Not me . . .

I'm more likely to forgive another's failings than my own faults.

and whether or not he needed to speak to you at all is the root of the problem. That matter wasn't discussed and resolved clearly.

I was informed of the decision as a fait accompli -- my only options were to accept or leave. I did my very best to accept, but failed. The situation ended up being more than I could bear.

It would have been nice to have been asked instead of informed -- to have been given an opportunity to be generous and giving instead of being forced to accept a situation, will I, nill I. If that had been done, things would most likely have been very, very different.

I can be very kind and generous when properly approached. No one saw fit to do that though. They didn't seem to think it either desirable or necessary.

It occurred to me today what you had said about my adoption ritual...is it possible that this is all pushing an additional button that has to do with family and community?

Yes. And being excluded from it. Deliberately.

There is no place at the table for me.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 20th, 2005 12:02 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
This one is going to be a bit painful. Don't read until you're ready for it...I can't mince words on this, or it isn't fair.

I feel as though the one I love so deeply has abandoned me in favor of someone else -- someone newer and shinier. There no longer is space in his life for me -- I have been replaced. When there is time for someone else, but not for me, the message I receive from that is that I am no longer wanted or cared for, that I am no longer important to him. And that message hurts me very much and very deeply.

'seph....really....You do realize you are talking about someone that was (and is) already in a committed relationship with someone else....right? Someone that was in that relationship when you stepped in? Someone that, by very definition, already was more important than you when you got involved? The fact that you could even exist as a possiblity had to be o.k.'d by the third party...to believe you started out on even footing is ridiculous.

You cannot be replaced when you didn't have a space to begin with. There was someone else there already, 'seph.
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 12:50 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
You appear to be misunderstanding me here.

This issue was NOT about the primary. It was about being pushed aside as a secondary by someone else. That there was time for her but none for me was the problem.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 03:12 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
The fact that you could even exist as a possiblity had to be o.k.'d by the third party...to believe you started out on even footing is ridiculous.

You're forgetting that he and I were involved long before his current primary was his girlfriend. She's the third girlfriend he's been involved with since I've been around. I would only agree to spend time with him when he was not with someone else. (I was involved at the time in an on-again, off-again relationship that I was trying to salvage as best I could.)

He chased me for years. Years and years. Then last summer I agreed to share him with his current primary after I was told they had decided to "open up" the relationship. Because he told me he loved me and had shown it by chasing me year after year after year -- persistently.

The current primary is the new kid on the block here -- not me.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 20th, 2005 12:17 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
You're forgetting that he and I were involved long before his current primary was his girlfriend. She's the third girlfriend he's been involved with since I've been around.

and you're forgetting that he never made any sort of a commitment to you. That regardless of how long you've known a person that doesn't obligate them to you in any way to feel anything.

Oh my god 'seph, you have totally stepped into the realm of the surreal.
The fact that you can't/won't see that is really not normal. You really need to speak to someone professional. I give up.
[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 20th, 2005 12:18 am (UTC)

To sum up...

(Link)
There are a couple of separate issues here:

1 - There's how you reacted to what you perceived to be hostile posts. I think that was handled kind of badly on your end. Regardless of whether or not the posts were hostile, you exacerbated the situation with your posts. It's your right to do that, but you took your whole situation and made it worse, then you acted surprised by people's reactions. Not reasonable. Understandable, but not reasonable.

2 - There's how you handled that night. I don't know...I wasn't there, and very little has been said on that subject. I do think, however, that you probably owe RBDarkly an apology. She was not only your host, but was in the middle of a grieving process, one that you were being present to support. To leave without speaking to your host is just rude, even if you've just had a knock-down drag-out with one of the guests. At the very least someone should have delivered a message to her on your behalf. I know that hasn't come up in all of this, but I felt it needed to be said, in case you've forgotten it in all this mess.

3 - There's what your actual rights were in the relationship. It's obvious that that was unclear. I feel that this is probably the root of almost all of the problems. However, the fact that your expectations didn't match actual delivery is, at this point, moot. You can choose to continue to be angry and hurt about this, or you can recognize it as what it was...miscommunication. I don't think anyone set out to say, "Let's see how high I can raise her before I dump her." Things happen in life that don't make us happy. We can wallow in them, or move on. I'm all for moving on.

That is not to belittle your pain, or to imply that you are not feeling pain. What I mean is that the pain is not a process to be prolonged. It's not doing you any favors to continue to feel pain. It just means that it would probably be wise to seek ways to move past it instead of holding onto it with the deathgrip you've got.

4 - You have needs. Some of these needs are deep and primal...I know because I've felt some of them myself, and I know how they can take on a life of their own and take over your body. It's frightening sometimes, how those needs can get you to make decisions that are unhealthy. In the long run, healing those needs will be the only way you can stop making unhealthy choices. I strongly suggest therapy. I feel that everyone can benefit from it, but people that have intense feelings like you or I can benefit more than some other folks.

The nature of seeing things in black or white is that reality just isn't that way. The world is in shades of grey. Learning to see more of those shades can only be helpful to you, and therapy would teach you how to do that. I know many people who have benefitted from it. But you have to be ready, and you have to be willing to look at some of the unpleasantness in yourself. We've all got unpleasantness in our souls.

I think some of your need is hurting you, and I think you should do something about it. That's one answer. There are probably others, but I don't know what they are, so I'm suggesting the one I know works.
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 05:13 am (UTC)

Re: To sum up...

(Link)
As to your first point -- generally I'm easy-going. I will often not react to a provocation. But sometimes I do -- I do have a temper you know! Even if I rarely display it.

And I was not surprised by people's reactions -- I expected them. I knew that there would be consequences to my actions -- and what they were likely to be. I spent a long sleepless night, waiting for it to grow light enough to leave, contemplating the repercussions of my leaving.

As to your second point --

I do think, however, that you probably owe RBDarkly an apology. She was not only your host, but was in the middle of a grieving process, one that you were being present to support. To leave without speaking to your host is just rude, even if you've just had a knock-down drag-out with one of the guests.

That was done days ago -- that very day in fact. I had to wait for her to be awake first. I didn't want to wake her up at the time -- she needed the rest. I was trying to be as quiet and discreet as possible in my departure.

At the very least someone should have delivered a message to her on your behalf.

People were asleep when I gathered my things and left. The one person I remember seeing was also a participant in this -- although less so than others -- and I couldn't trust myself not to burst into tears and cause a big scene, which I did not want. I was trying very hard to avoid that by leaving quietly when I did and in the manner I did. I was attempting to be discreet and not cause a fuss. So he received a non-verbal goodbye as I headed out the door with my stuff. I'm not even sure how awake he was anyway -- and I didn't want any questions, since I was sure I'd start blubbering then.

As to your third point --

There's what your actual rights were in the relationship. It's obvious that that was unclear. I feel that this is probably the root of almost all of the problems.

That is such an understatement!!!!

I feel that those rights underwent a change when the move was made from his home to hers. Everything changed then.

it would probably be wise to seek ways to move past it instead of holding onto it with the deathgrip you've got.

That is what I've been doing -- I am going through a grieving process for what I once had. Not everyone grieves at the same pace nor in the same manner.

As to your fourth point -- I see more shades of gray than perhaps you realize.

Therapy is a very common answer to life's problems.

I have another.

Just accept that sometimes life sucks -- and not in a fun way. And that there may be very little you can do about it -- if anything at all.


Persephone the Stoic

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