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October 19th, 2005


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12:05 am - The exodus of friends continues . . .


diavola restroom


One of the side effects of being Evil Incarnate . . .

~~ sighs ~~

~~ twirls her pointy tail ~~

~~ sings Voltaire's "When You're Evil" to cheer herself up ~~

~~ twirls her pointy tail some more ~~

~~ starts to read "Pariah-hood for Dummies" ~~
Current Mood: sadresigned
Current Music: "When You're Evil" by Voltaire

(34 seeds eaten | Eat a pomegranate)

Comments:


[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 19th, 2005 03:10 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
And since I'm being treated as Evil Incarnate, I must be that -- right? Right?

No...I think you're just really really angry. And nobody resolves anything by speaking to really really angry people. Speaking to them is fruitless until they're not so angry.

and the side they are choosing is not mine. (I kind of expected that, given the others involved in this mess -- they have more and better social connections than I do.)

...Now 'seph....surely you know this group of friends better than that. 85-90% of them would not choose a side at all unless they felt involved or insulted in some way. (I can't speak for the other 10-15%, but I'd venture they're mostly similar.) Them choosing one side or another I'm sure has little or nothing to do with social connections or being friends with folks. That's a very high school mentality, and this circle of friends has evolved past that. You're remembering a feeling you had when you were younger, and it's poking you in the eyes so you can't see clearly. What is happening now is not what happened then (regardless of whatever "then" was) and has all its own ire associated with it. It doesn't need extra historical ire that it isn't a part of, if you know what I mean.

While there may be other points of view besides mine, I dislike it intensely when my point of view is invalidated out of hand, which is something I do not do to others. And that has occurred repeatedly in this situation to me -- my point of view is dismissed without a second thought.

I've been reading the posts back and forth, and I do not see this being done to you. I see you doing this to other people, instead. I think it's important to tell you this because I don't think that you're seeing it, and it feels important.

It appears to me that what is happening is happening because you are treating people in the way that you believe you are being treated, but are not actually being treated. As a result, people are frustrated, and choosing sides.

Again, please realize, I'm sure I'm saying some unpleasant things. I'm not saying them to insult or to injure. I'm saying them because I'm concerned, and I don't like to see you in pain, and in order to address that, these things need to be talked about. If your binary switch flips, and you need to stop being friends with me, I'll understand...I lose quite a bit of friends that way. But I don't get the impression that's the kind of relationship we have, so I don't feel in danger of that at the moment.

If we're getting close to that point, though, let me know.
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 19th, 2005 10:45 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
Due to comment length restrictions, my reply will have to be in several parts. Sorry about that.

I'm sure I'm saying some unpleasant things. I'm not saying them to insult or to injure. I'm saying them because I'm concerned, and I don't like to see you in pain, and in order to address that, these things need to be talked about.

I agree -- and that is the heart of the problem here -- lack of communication and differing definitions of certain terms -- definitions that have been inadequately communicated, causing multiple misunderstandings and misinterpretations. And a lot of pain -- pain that might have been avoided if all parties had been "on the same page".

I thank you for your concern and I appreciate it deeply -- maybe more than you realize. I can see that you are doing the best you know how to make things better -- and I appreciate that deeply also.

If your binary switch flips, and you need to stop being friends with me, I'll understand...I lose quite a bit of friends that way. But I don't get the impression that's the kind of relationship we have, so I don't feel in danger of that at the moment.

You aren't in any danger of that -- not from me.

Them choosing one side or another I'm sure has little or nothing to do with social connections or being friends with folks.

There we might have to agree to disagree. Some of the people involved have been friends with others for years longer than those others have known me (decades in some cases) -- and are also much closer friends than with me. There are several people who are like that involved in this.

Were I to be at a gathering, say at someone's house, where there are several of these people present, there would end up being an underlying current of disharmony -- a disruption of the wa of the group -- due to me. The others get along fine without me -- but if I am around, I would be bringing tension and disharmony in by my very presence.

I am only one person -- there are several others who get along fine with one another, but not with me. One versus several -- who is it better not to have around for the overall harmony of the group?

Answer -- the one. It is the logical choice, given the circumstances. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one."

Some have already disassociated themselves from me -- frankly I expect others to follow. In some cases, I have decided that even if I am invited to certain events, it would be best not to come, for the afore-mentioned reason -- to me it would not be right to spoil an event for others by my being present and causing there to be social tension. This has already been communicated to one person, so she would know the reason why I would be declining her kind invitations to me -- and it will also be communicated to others, if need be, on an as-needed basis. To me, it is the right thing to do -- I have no desire to be a party pooper or to feel that my presence is unwanted.

You might claim that that is "a very high school mentality" -- and to a certain extent you would be correct. High school is a living laboratory for adolescents to practice the group dynamics of social interactions that take place in the adult world. These exact same interactions take place constantly among adults -- but there they are often referred to as "internal politics". I have no desire to be a "political problem" -- certainly no more so than I already am!!

Persephone
[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 19th, 2005 11:31 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
I am only one person -- there are several others who get along fine with one another, but not with me. One versus several -- who is it better not to have around for the overall harmony of the group?

No one has yelled at you, told you you are being stupid, or said that they can't be friends with you. Not until you became hostile. You are choosing to be a "political problem" by insisting that everyone must hate you, because no one is listening to you. In reality, people have contacted you and apologized to you. You have responded with harshness and anger.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to be angry. I'm saying that it seems to be natural to you to jump to victim status at the earliest opportunity, thereby creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Life does not have to be like this. Things can change if you want them to. But you have to look at it and SEE it. Right now it's like you're doing anything to NOT see it. I'll explain in the other post.
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 12:40 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
In reality, people have contacted you and apologized to you.

Well -- here I think we have a difference of opinion as to what constitutes an apology.

Saying "I'm sorry you were upset by this situation" to me is NOT the same as saying "I'm sorry that things that I did made you upset." To me the first is much, much weaker -- not really an apology at all. It is more an expression of regret at hurt feelings, but (to me) not taking any responsibility for having done anything to cause those hurt feelings. To me, that is not an apology.

If I had received a sincere "I'm sorry my actions upset you" apology, my reaction would have been different.

I have also only heard from one person here -- not the other. At all.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to be angry.

Thank you very much for having said that!

The feedback I had been receiving from others was that because I was a secondary, I had no right whatsoever to be upset. And that attitude got me even more upset.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 19th, 2005 10:56 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
Continuation of the above comment:


"And that has occurred repeatedly in this situation to me -- my point of view is dismissed without a second thought."

I've been reading the posts back and forth, and I do not see this being done to you.


This statement leads me to the conclusion that we are not perceiving the same things. Therefore, I think it necessary to give specific examples, with the messages I am receiving from them. Please forgive me if the tone comes across as possibly being condescending -- it is honestly not meant to be so -- I am simply making an attempt to provide clarity to this murky situation.

In this comment, I am referred to as someone who prefers to "play the victim" -- I found this term to be dismissive, as though I were playing some kind of mind game. I am not. I feel that I have a legitimate grievance that is not being heard. Using the term "play the victim" makes me receive the message that the person making that comment considers that my grievance is not valid and that what I say will be ignored.

In this comment, "I hope you can gain some perspective on it eventually..." causes me to receive another dismissive message. I am receiving the message that the writer thinks that my viewpoint needs to be altered -- that it is not in accord with reality. Again, invalidation of my viewpoint -- dismissal out of hand.

I as well as others were also able to see that I was being baited by this same writer. (I know you did not -- that is why I am pointing this out here.) I did not take kindly to that, particularly when the entry in her journal belied her seemingly-kind comment -- there was a discord there that I pointed out, point by point. I admit to being both bitter and sarcastic at times there, but I felt that I was being provoked and needed to reply to her comment to point out the inconsistencies of her statements. The dissonance between what she said in one place versus what she said in another really grated on my nerves, especially when she was being dismissive of my point of view.

I think you're just really really angry.

No -- I'm hurt. Very, very, VERY hurt. I admit to flashes of anger in this post and its comments and in this comment -- shown mostly with sarcasm -- but my main emotion is hurt -- deep gut-wrenching pain. (You can tell my mood pretty easily usually based on what icon I use for a post or a comment.)

I feel as though the one I love so deeply has abandoned me in favor of someone else -- someone newer and shinier. There no longer is space in his life for me -- I have been replaced. When there is time for someone else, but not for me, the message I receive from that is that I am no longer wanted or cared for, that I am no longer important to him. And that message hurts me very much and very deeply.

I want nothing more than to have him take me into his lap and kiss me and cuddle me and be truly loved and wanted by him.

But I can't have that. It was hard enough for me to be second-best always -- now I'm third-best, if I'm even as high as that. I feel as though I'm just a name on a list -- and my name isn't even near the top. Not anymore.

The pain of that realization was more than I could bear, especially when my nose was repeatedly rubbed in it.


Persephone the Broken-Hearted
[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 19th, 2005 11:35 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
Like you, this will take a couple of posts to reply to:

In this comment, I am referred to as someone who prefers to "play the victim" -- I found this term to be dismissive, as though I were playing some kind of mind game. I am not. I feel that I have a legitimate grievance that is not being heard. Using the term "play the victim" makes me receive the message that the person making that comment considers that my grievance is not valid and that what I say will be ignored.

That response is not to attack you...it is to console her, because she was explaining how she apologized and she was attacked for it. That is a true statement...she apologized, and she was attacked for it. Because of THAT you lose validity...it makes it appear as if there is nothing that will console you, you will not hear other opinions than your own. You become unapproachable by your response, and normal functional healthy people will not hunt down another human being and force healing on them. You choose not to resolve peacefully.

That was your choice. It has consequence.
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 01:15 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
That response is not to attack you...it is to console her, because she was explaining how she apologized and she was attacked for it.

It didn't seem that way to me, but I will admit that it can be interpreted that way as well.

As to the apology mentioned, please see my comment above. What was written to me did not come across as a genuine apology -- merely an expression of regret for the situation. To me, that expression of regret, phrased in the manner it was, was not an apology -- although apparently others saw it as such.

it makes it appear as if there is nothing that will console you, you will not hear other opinions than your own.

Not true. I will hear opinions other than my own -- even if I disagree with them -- but I also want the holders of those other opinions to listen to mine -- with the same degree of respect that they expect me to listen to theirs. When that doesn't occur, I get upset at the lack of reciprocity. They need not agree with me, but I feel that they should listen. To me, that is fair.

You choose not to resolve peacefully.

I'm really not sure that resolution is possible here -- it would be nice if it were! I'm willing -- not sure if others are though . . .


Persephone

[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 19th, 2005 11:40 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
In this comment, "I hope you can gain some perspective on it eventually..." causes me to receive another dismissive message. I am receiving the message that the writer thinks that my viewpoint needs to be altered -- that it is not in accord with reality. Again, invalidation of my viewpoint -- dismissal out of hand.

You are hearing things that aren't being said. Hoping that you gain a perspective means that you gain the ability to see another viewpoint besides your own, not to become a blind robot that automatically agrees with the viewpoint presented.

By focusing on the one sentence you search to find fault in, you ignore all the sentences before it including the apology, the concern for your welfare, and you CHOOSE to believe that they are not sincere. You make this choice by ignoring other positive statements, and choosing to focus on the negative ones.

Does your viewpoint need to be altered? I believe so, yes, but not the way you probably think I mean it. I think your viewpoint of yourself as an innocent bystander needs to be looked at. You have participated in this on so many levels that being a victim has become a choice.

It's your choice to make...but I don't know why on earth you would choose those things unless you know no other way to choose. There is a better way.
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 01:39 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
You are hearing things that aren't being said.

I'm sorry that you are not able to see what I see there -- it's there, even if you are not able to perceive it yourself.

By focusing on the one sentence you search to find fault in, you ignore all the sentences before it including the apology, the concern for your welfare, and you CHOOSE to believe that they are not sincere. You make this choice by ignoring other positive statements, and choosing to focus on the negative ones.

They were not ignored. I do believe that the positive statements were said in order to be polite -- a type of "windowdressing" as it were. When people have a disagreement after a gift having been given, it is polite to offer to return the gift.

The gift was given sincerely on my part and I do not wish it returned. It was a genuine gift.

To me, politeness and sincerity are two different things.

You have participated in this on so many levels that being a victim has become a choice.

That I believe to be a matter of opinion -- and one we might need to agree to disagree on. I will agree that I did participate in this though. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

It's your choice to make...but I don't know why on earth you would choose those things unless you know no other way to choose. There is a better way.

Yes -- out.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 19th, 2005 11:53 pm (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
I as well as others were also able to see that I was being baited by this same writer. (I know you did not -- that is why I am pointing this out here.) I did not take kindly to that, particularly when the entry in her journal belied her seemingly-kind comment -- there was a discord there that I pointed out, point by point. I admit to being both bitter and sarcastic at times there, but I felt that I was being provoked and needed to reply to her comment to point out the inconsistencies of her statements. The dissonance between what she said in one place versus what she said in another really grated on my nerves, especially when she was being dismissive of my point of view.

Interestingly enough, even that person that you say agrees with you says,"Kinda clever to use your LJ to do it, but only in the way that it seems you started it..." Even the person that agrees with you can see the argument that you started it.

As for her inconsistencies in her entry, you yourself have within the past week told me how you made decisions that you knew you should not have made, but you made them because you were so emotionally carried away that you made those decisions anyway, knowing that you shouldn't.

How can you fault someone else for doing the exact same thing?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong (in her case or yours). What I'm saying is, if you're willing to forgive it without a second thought in your own case, you should extend that to other people.

I mean, honestly, she even mentioned in her comment that maybe "we" should have spoken to you, as if it was even her responsibility, which it isn't. The only person with a responsibility to speak to you about it was him, seeing as he was the one in the situation with you (and whether or not he needed to speak to you at all is the root of the problem. That matter wasn't discussed and resolved clearly.) Anger and hurt is flying all over the place at people who don't really deserve it.

And again, it's your right to feel that way...but not looking at these things and not seeing these things is not helping you.

Most of her post had nothing to do with you at all, instead it was about ritual. It occurred to me today what you had said about my adoption ritual...is it possible that this is all pushing an additional button that has to do with family and community?
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 02:08 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
What I'm saying is, if you're willing to forgive it without a second thought in your own case, you should extend that to other people.

Who says I've forgiven myself? Not me . . .

I'm more likely to forgive another's failings than my own faults.

and whether or not he needed to speak to you at all is the root of the problem. That matter wasn't discussed and resolved clearly.

I was informed of the decision as a fait accompli -- my only options were to accept or leave. I did my very best to accept, but failed. The situation ended up being more than I could bear.

It would have been nice to have been asked instead of informed -- to have been given an opportunity to be generous and giving instead of being forced to accept a situation, will I, nill I. If that had been done, things would most likely have been very, very different.

I can be very kind and generous when properly approached. No one saw fit to do that though. They didn't seem to think it either desirable or necessary.

It occurred to me today what you had said about my adoption ritual...is it possible that this is all pushing an additional button that has to do with family and community?

Yes. And being excluded from it. Deliberately.

There is no place at the table for me.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 20th, 2005 12:02 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
This one is going to be a bit painful. Don't read until you're ready for it...I can't mince words on this, or it isn't fair.

I feel as though the one I love so deeply has abandoned me in favor of someone else -- someone newer and shinier. There no longer is space in his life for me -- I have been replaced. When there is time for someone else, but not for me, the message I receive from that is that I am no longer wanted or cared for, that I am no longer important to him. And that message hurts me very much and very deeply.

'seph....really....You do realize you are talking about someone that was (and is) already in a committed relationship with someone else....right? Someone that was in that relationship when you stepped in? Someone that, by very definition, already was more important than you when you got involved? The fact that you could even exist as a possiblity had to be o.k.'d by the third party...to believe you started out on even footing is ridiculous.

You cannot be replaced when you didn't have a space to begin with. There was someone else there already, 'seph.
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 12:50 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
You appear to be misunderstanding me here.

This issue was NOT about the primary. It was about being pushed aside as a secondary by someone else. That there was time for her but none for me was the problem.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:theentwife
Date:October 20th, 2005 03:12 am (UTC)

Re: attempting to be a voice of reason...

(Link)
The fact that you could even exist as a possiblity had to be o.k.'d by the third party...to believe you started out on even footing is ridiculous.

You're forgetting that he and I were involved long before his current primary was his girlfriend. She's the third girlfriend he's been involved with since I've been around. I would only agree to spend time with him when he was not with someone else. (I was involved at the time in an on-again, off-again relationship that I was trying to salvage as best I could.)

He chased me for years. Years and years. Then last summer I agreed to share him with his current primary after I was told they had decided to "open up" the relationship. Because he told me he loved me and had shown it by chasing me year after year after year -- persistently.

The current primary is the new kid on the block here -- not me.


Persephone
[User Picture]
From:mowglikat
Date:October 20th, 2005 12:18 am (UTC)

To sum up...

(Link)
There are a couple of separate issues here:

1 - There's how you reacted to what you perceived to be hostile posts. I think that was handled kind of badly on your end. Regardless of whether or not the posts were hostile, you exacerbated the situation with your posts. It's your right to do that, but you took your whole situation and made it worse, then you acted surprised by people's reactions. Not reasonable. Understandable, but not reasonable.

2 - There's how you handled that night. I don't know...I wasn't there, and very little has been said on that subject. I do think, however, that you probably owe RBDarkly an apology. She was not only your host, but was in the middle of a grieving process, one that you were being present to support. To leave without speaking to your host is just rude, even if you've just had a knock-down drag-out with one of the guests. At the very least someone should have delivered a message to her on your behalf. I know that hasn't come up in all of this, but I felt it needed to be said, in case you've forgotten it in all this mess.

3 - There's what your actual rights were in the relationship. It's obvious that that was unclear. I feel that this is probably the root of almost all of the problems. However, the fact that your expectations didn't match actual delivery is, at this point, moot. You can choose to continue to be angry and hurt about this, or you can recognize it as what it was...miscommunication. I don't think anyone set out to say, "Let's see how high I can raise her before I dump her." Things happen in life that don't make us happy. We can wallow in them, or move on. I'm all for moving on.

That is not to belittle your pain, or to imply that you are not feeling pain. What I mean is that the pain is not a process to be prolonged. It's not doing you any favors to continue to feel pain. It just means that it would probably be wise to seek ways to move past it instead of holding onto it with the deathgrip you've got.

4 - You have needs. Some of these needs are deep and primal...I know because I've felt some of them myself, and I know how they can take on a life of their own and take over your body. It's frightening sometimes, how those needs can get you to make decisions that are unhealthy. In the long run, healing those needs will be the only way you can stop making unhealthy choices. I strongly suggest therapy. I feel that everyone can benefit from it, but people that have intense feelings like you or I can benefit more than some other folks.

The nature of seeing things in black or white is that reality just isn't that way. The world is in shades of grey. Learning to see more of those shades can only be helpful to you, and therapy would teach you how to do that. I know many people who have benefitted from it. But you have to be ready, and you have to be willing to look at some of the unpleasantness in yourself. We've all got unpleasantness in our souls.

I think some of your need is hurting you, and I think you should do something about it. That's one answer. There are probably others, but I don't know what they are, so I'm suggesting the one I know works.

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